Let me be clear. I am so for anyone having any kind of spiritual connection with anything, and am so glad that people find things like hope, faith and solidarity in religious communities across the world. But, oppression comes in all forms, and though the average Catholic JMU student may not be standing outside with a sign that says “Men > Women” or “God hates fags” what kind of message do you think the following ad, displayed in Grafton-Stovall Theatre on campus is sending to the world’s minorities and majorities?
Okay, first of all, everyone on the slide is a white male. Now, this is not so different from mainstream media ads, so let’s push further. Tell me what, is an unmanly world? One with women in it? One with more femininity in it? Look at this picture of the Senior Administrative staff at JMU, the people who are at the tippy top of university power:
Notice anything? 4/5 men, all white, all–at least now–pretty well off. Now, who else has power at the university? Well, most definitely the Board of Visitors. 5 out of 17 of them are women. I couldn’t find pictures, but I’d be willing to wager a lot of them are white as well.
My point here is that the world, the people who are in charge of the world we as students live in, are men. So the “unmanly” world, seems pretty manly to me. So then what has inspired Catholic Campus Ministry to hold this retreat for it’s members? Are women allowed to attend? Well… I dug deeper to see what “The King’s Men” are all about. No, women are not allowed at the retreats. They are also strong supporters of healing “father and son relationships, sex and porn addiction, same sex attraction disorders and post abortion trauma”. Key words like “disorders” and “trauma” sort of link in to stuff we’ve talked about on this blog over and over again.
In Catholic Campus Ministries’ about us page, they state that “it is a gathering of young people who seek to celebrate the universal truth of God’s unconditional love. As individuals from many different backgrounds, we are all part of the one Body of Christ together.” I’m not really certain if you’re including many different backgrounds by bringing speakers like this to campus. Unconditional love isn’t exactly what I’m seeing in these kind of events.
I for one don’t think that men are in a position to need help becoming “the leader, protector and provider” since they already occupy the vast majority of those roles.
When I looked at who the leaders are in CCM, guess what? 9/10 of them were women. Are these the kinds of messages women should be internalizing? That of the follower, the protected and the provided-for?
ShoutOut! James Madison University 
I feel as though the tension in this post comes from a misinterpretation of the word “manly”. The catch phrase “Be a man in an unmanly world” does not refer to the lack of male leadership, yet what has become acceptable of men today. Actually, while I’m not a male, and no, I cannot attend, I can’t be happier that there is a place like this for men to go. It seems that an aim of this retreat is to make a point that men need to break what may be considered social norms. Women are to be respected. The “unmanly” world refers to the one where women are disrespected and objectified. The men organizing this wish go against the grain and treat themselves and those they love with utmost care and love.
While women are not invited to this retreat, we have our own retreat to attend and have our fair share of things that men can’t come to as well as an abundance of coed activities. The 90% female leadership just goes to show that we do hold a place of power and are not followers, yet leading a community of hundreds.
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Thank you for your response Colleen!
If indeed it is the intention of this retreat to inform men about the lack of respect and objectification of women, should that not have been explicitly stated? When this ad was presented in a class of mine (thus how I came across it), the mass response from the women in the classroom was one of disbelief and alienation. The gay men in the class were offended as well.
So with room for misinterpretation, it is difficult to redact my criticism. If this is what this retreat is about, I would love to know more, and will rewrite the post endorsing the retreat. I am open and honest enough to make this change if you would like to chat with me on it, send an email to shoutoutjmu@gmail.com and we can set up a time to meet.
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Hi Grrrir!
The only reason it was misinterpreted was because that’s the direction you wanted to take it. Obviously, as you so graciously opened, you are open to your own interpretations, but some of your conjecture is unfounded. I’ve seen reactions to movements like these before and it seems as if people are determined to be scandalized.
Men and women are different, there is simply no arguing that. There is more difference between men and women than just our reproductive organs and it would be demeaning to women to assert otherwise.
The retreat, as I understand it as a Catholic woman, intends to teach men to love, to protect, to respect, and to be an example of the love that Jesus came to Earth to espouse. When these men learn “to protect” at this retreat, this does not bar women from protecting themselves occasionally or as often as they please. However, even if we only consider a man’s physical strength in those situations, we don’t want to get rid of men anymore than they want to get rid of women.
Would it be better received if there was a sign right next to it targeting women? The sign made it clear what needed to be shared: we need more manly men. This means we need men who respect women, who love others in every minute of their lives, who put women first (especially romantically — the hookup culture is completely unfeminist, but that’s another story), and who use their strengths to their fullest ability.
What fault do you find in that?
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You might be the most ignorant person that i have had the displeasure to listen to in my entire life. You know absolutely little to nothing about the topic “mantreat” of which you speak of, except what the feminist tribe that you are obviously a part of have sacrilegiously pounded into that thick skull sitting on that lard like body that i assume you possess. Please get those thick thighs up and moving and go to CCM, located by Fedex Kinkos on Friday (March 25) and talk to the people who are running the retreat before you continue this Catholic defamation campaign.
Good day.
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Actually, i retake that statement about the feminist tribe, i think some feminist groups voice their opinion in an appropriate manner.
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John, thank you for your two cents. Your comments about my weight are a perfect example of how a woman’s physical appearance is the predominant method of demeaning, objectifying and insulting her.
When I emailed CCM looking for more information, I did not receive a response.
Thank you for acknowledging that all feminists are not the same, we are a diverse bunch. If you have any more information about the retreat that you could provide to me, please email shoutoutjmu@gmail.com.
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Grrrir,
I apologize for my comments about your weight, that was totally inappropriate of me, it was just the “spur of the moment reaction” after reading your less then friendly blog that was attacking Catholic men like myself. However, please do not try to spin this one “flash in the pan” reaction as being more than it needs to be (i.e. predominant method of demeaning women etc..)Also, I will gladly email you more information if you do so request.
God Bless
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I have been a Catholic all my life. I have taught five Sunday school classes, made hundreds of Rosaries for people at my church, read and sang during Mass, sponsored someone making their confirmation, am a godmother…you name it, I have probably done it. My best friend Miguel? He joined the Knights of Columbus (the organization JMU has on campus, similar to the King’s Men).
From the outside, this organization that you are criticizing seems extremely sexist, as does most of the Catholic Church structure. It is true that women can not be priests, and honestly, we question this constantly. In fact, my pastor back home did not allow girls to be altar servers either (which is traditionally a boy’s role, however recently has become commonly both a boys and girls role), and you can bet that I questioned and argued this as much as I could. What I have had to realize though, as many women in the Catholic Church have, is that we have just as an important role in the Church as men – if not more important. While men identify with Jesus Christ (and let’s face it, how can you really identify with someone who is fully human and fully God – completely perfect?), we identify with Mary, Jesus’ mother, who followed God’s will to do one of the most brave things of her time: have a baby out of wedlock. She was not forced to do this, but said yes to God’s will. She took this responsibility and was rewarded greatly for raising Jesus and sticking by Him through the ridicule and His death. Like any mother, she provided Jesus with support and strength. (And even if you do not believe Jesus is the Son of God, you still have to admit this is a courageous thing to do on Mary’s part.)
You noted that 9 out of the 10 CCM leadership were girls. This is because we identify with someone whose strength, courage, and love helped bring salvation to the world. Yes, we support the men in the Catholic Church, but that is tradition because Mary supported Jesus. This does not mean we are any less important. Being apart of the Church for almost 20 years, I can tell you that it would not run without the women.
As for the Knights of Columbus (and the Knight’s Men)? These are organizations to help men identify with and follow Jesus, which is much harder than it sounds in this day in age. Why does the poster say “being a man in an unmanly world”? Because men are not confident in their faith and give into many of the evils of the world (and yes, we believe things like looking at pornography is evil because it distorts the true beauty of a woman’s body). You have to realize that saying an “unmanly world” doesn’t mean a feminine world or those filled with gays and lesbians, it simply means a world filled with sin. Yes, many may criticize this poster for its unfriendliness towards women and gays, but you have to look at it through the eyes of a Catholic. This is not offensive to me at all, and not because I am a blind follower – trust me, I have had my doubts – but because I have researched my faith and my religion and understand the reasons for this sort of seminar. There is a shortage of Catholic priests and in many churches less than 1/3 of the congregation is male. This poster is not suggesting a non-masculine world, but rather – believe it or not – a shortage of males in the Church.
And if you were wondering, there is a counterpart to the Knights of Columbus called the Ladies Axillary. JMU does not have it yet, but I hope to start a group up.
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Thank you for your input!
If I have read your response correctly, it is your perception that women in the church have looked at their identities as women that model a supportive, strong and brave person, Mary.
It would seem as though Jesus also had wonderful qualities that the whole world would do good emulating, male or female, just as Mary had great qualities.
In a respectful, honest and genuine manner, I ask you, why is it that women don’t identify with Jesus as men do? Why don’t men identify with Mary as women do? Is there opposition to emulating those role models–simply because your gender does not match the role models?
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I just want to thank you for this post… I was raised Catholic, by very Catholic parents. At this point, even my mother refuses to go to Catholic church exactly because of issues like this. The church obviously favors men over women and relegates women to a supporting role. When we moved back to the U.S. my little sister (who had been an altar server where we used to live) was informed that girls could not fulfill such an important task. Now, my little sister is the most strident atheist you will meet, and clearly it’s because she was alienated from the church as a woman.
The policies the church supports, and especially ones like this which place masculinity at the top of a hierarchy, are simply disgusting and alienating to anyone who isn’t a straight male.
As for the idea that it indicates that there aren’t enough men in the Catholic church, as Colleen suggests, then why doesn’t the church open up positions to women? If there aren’t enough priests, then why doesn’t the church rescind it’s antiquated policies that equate ordaining a woman as a priest to pedophilia (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2004702,00.html).
I’m sorry, but it’s things like that, and my own experiences in church (the Christmas mass wherein the priest declared that gay people are burning in hell, for one) that makes it clear that the Catholic church hates anyone who isn’t a straight male.
So awesome post, grrrir, because clearly this poster and the lecture it teaches is some hypermasculine, patriarchal, homophobic, and misogynist bullshit.
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It was actually Maggie who stated the fact that there aren’t enough Priests,and there are specific reasons why women are not priests,but there are plenty of ways women contribute. It something that is constantly a battle within the church. Personally I see a priest in the position of “persona Christi” or in the person of Christ, but again, not everyone agrees. The church is actively changing, while based in tradition we do not just ignore the voices of women trying to be more involved.
I’m very sorry you had to hear a priest declare things like that at mass, but you have to understand that what one priest says is not necessarily the teaching of the church. I can say that the church does not hate homosexuals! We actually have a fantastic resource if you ever feel the need to clarify issues like this. JMU has there very own campus minister/priest, Fr. Jim who is here for us students to talk to if needed.
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Grrrir,
there is absolutely no one that can not identify with Jesus, and this is not the point I was trying to make. My point was that it is much easier to identify with your own gender (consider when you were growing up – did you wish to wear your mom’s or dad’s dress shoes? Most girls would say we tried on our mom’s high heels because we identified more with her – we look like her, etc). Men do not generally identify with Mary because they can not put themselves in her shoes. (Not many men – including gay men – can understand the fear of teenage pregnancy or the public ridicule that comes with it). I was in no way implying that women can not identify with Jesus, however, you have to admit that it is much easier to identify with someone of our own gender. You can argue all you want that women and men can fulfill each other’s gender roles, but at the end of the day we are two separate genders and we feel and think differently. This does not in anyway mean we are not equal – we are just different. This is the way the Catholic Church is structured – we are all equal, but we have different roles to fulfill.
This gets to the point of why women can not be priests. The Catholic Church is very traditional and both men and women fulfill different roles. Women have tons of roles we can fulfill (which I believe I listed the things that I myself, a woman, have done for the Church). If you see the comment below, Mama Carey beautifully describes the different roles women have played in Church history.
Katie,
I’m sorry to hear that your experience with the Church was not a good one. However, like Colleen said, priests are people too, and they have faults. A common problem with many members of the Church is just blindly following what a priest says without researching the religion and faith (this is where you get those who think “God hates fags”). The Church itself does not judge others or condemn homosexuals. We may not necessarily agree with this lifestyle, but a true loving Catholic would never reject a gay person or say they were going to hell. That is up to God, not us.
As for your sister, I am sorry to hear that she is now an atheist, but I find it offensive that you use a rule in one church in one religion to justify her lack of faith. There is a major difference between faith and religion. Religion is a set of guidelines used to reinforce a person’s faith, and it is very possible to have faith without religion and vice versa. To say that your sister lost her faith because she was not allowed to be an alter service is not justified, because there are many other roles she could have fulfilled.
Mama Carey,
Thank you so much for you wonderful comment 🙂
God bless, and I am sorry if I have offended anyone.
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Beloved, let us love one another. 1 John 4:7
Yikes. There seems to be so much hostility surrounding this little flier.
I just wanted to set the record straight. The Catholic Church LOVES women. They believe women are holy. They believe women are holy because they are created as women. Their worth is not based on “doing” but on “being”. They are not worthy because they are CEO’s, leaders on campus, running successful blog sites or anything else they could possibly do. They are holy and loved and to be revered and respected simply because they ARE women.
Catholic history is filled with women who are bestowed the honor of Doctor of the Church (there are only 33!) in times when secular society thought women weren’t even capable of being intellectuals. The Church has had women as CEO’s of hospitals, schools and orphanages before anyone had ever heard of women’s rights. The litanies are filled with spiritual giants such as Mother Teresa, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Katherine of Sienna, way to many women to list here who embraced the Roman Catholic Church changed the course of world history.
Shame on you, Brother John. (I can do that as I am the mother of five daughters and one son.) God created grrrir as one of our beautiful sisters. He created her body just the way He wanted it for His purposes. He loves her and so should you.
Grrrir, I would beg of you tolerance and respect for my Church. I disagree with my Jewish brothers and sisters on some theological points but only with deepest reverence for the people and the history of the Jewish faith. The Catholic Church holds truth to the highest standard. I would encourage you to learn the truth about what my Catholic Church teaches and then you are welcomed to disagree with it.
I hope your invitation to learn more about my religion over lunch is open to me too. You certainly sound like an engaging, vivacious young women. I questioned everything when I was your age!
Agape,
Mama Carey
PS The Catholic Church also loves men because they are men and this conference is an invitation to get them equipped to live lives of deep virtue and honor. And that is a good thing for women!
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I am so glad to see so much discussion on this topic! I often catch myself questioning the intersection in identifying as a Christian Feminist. I connect these two ostensibly contradictory identities in the resolve that what it comes down to is this:
God loves us because we are PEOPLE, not because we are male, female, straight, gay, bisexual or transgendered.
That is why it is disconcerting that these kind of conferences assert the supposed differences between the sexes. I feel as though it is much more prudent to stress the love and tolerance that Christ himself preached. I think the alienation that these kinds of conferences can cause (ie: to women, gay males, transgendered people, or any number of straight males who don’t fit their “manly” stereotype) far outweighs the potential benefits. I think the church could do much more good in this world by holding a conference to support more open minded ideas of sex, gender and sexuality than holding one to reinforce the massively powerful preexisting roles. If the Catholic church could accept and encourage these differences, how many more people would be encouraged and excited by the love of God?
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Somethingbeany – I completely agree with you. God loves us for the people we are, no matter what. I think the confusion of this retreat is that CCM only supports males, when in fact there are so many things for females – in fact there was a women’s retreat in the fall. Separating genders isn’t to degrade either one, it’s simply to help each understand the love of Jesus better. Catholics are not the only ones that do this – Cru and Intervarsity do this as well for their small groups.
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As a Catholic male, I must say this is an intriguing argument that made me think of a point of view that I never have before. That said, for you and your class to take this interpretation of a flier and assume that this event is trying to cultivate a group of men to oppress women, in the name of the Catholic church, and in the name of JMU CCM, baffles me. It is even more illogical for you to make such a proposition when the purpose of this event may promote the values that you seem to be fighting for.
In my opinion you/your class should have asked for more information about the content of this event before you made this argument.
I am glad that you presented this argument and seem to be open for discussion.
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As a gay man raised Catholic, I read “unmanly” as faggy or gay, and instantly feel unwelcome to such an event. And the Catholic Church is notorious for not valuing women, and what femninist values wcould the CCM promote that is line with Catholicism? Using Birth Control? Gay Marriage? Gender Equality(i.e. female priests)? Regarding women beyond their value as a womb? Taking victims seriously and knowing “sorry” doesn’t cover mass human rights abuses? I’m not being facetious, but I’m really trying to make a point, and while it may be a blanket generalization, the machismo of the Catholic Church lends a particular context to the phrase “an unmanly world.” and what, exactly, that means. Plus, it also generates an idea of false victimhood, which makes it look like all the “threathening”, “underserving” minorities are taking power from the “deserving” majority i.e. heterosexual christian white men. Which, if you look at who has economic and political rule, you’ll find they are still holding it by the vast majority. And ultimately, having access to the top societal resources is kind of what equals power. Our culture is not “unmanly” by any means, and this panicked approach is almost certainly a way to stir people against those who trying to promote true social and economic equality.
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Hi Aliasmitch!
I’m sorry that your opinions of the Catholic Church and its teachings are so low. If you were to spend some time at this retreat, I would hope some of these perceptions would be changed.
The Catholic Church does not devalue women, at all. In fact, in another forum I could make the case that the Church offers true freedom and sincere respect for women, beyond their womb. I echo Caitrin’s comment below regarding some of the other claims you have made against the Church.
We learn to love first. We’re meant to love everyone and I have heard priests and other Catholics stand up for gay men and women when they are being mistreated. We are not called to ridicule one another, no matter who we are. This doesn’t mean everyone abides by this natural law, but the Church does teach to love EVERYONE.
I understand why it might make you uncomfortable, but I recommend giving the retreat a shot. I think you would be surprised.
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Maggie, I’m sorry you found what I said to be offensive, but that is the exact reason she is an atheist. She was an enthusiastic participant in the church, and then was disenfranchised completely and told her participation was not only unnecessary, but an affront to God. Because of the church’s misogynistic stance on women, my little sister lost her faith. Her personal experiences should not be offensive to you.
And Colleen, as someone who is bisexual, I can guarantee you that the church hates me, and does not want me to live a fulfilling life where I reach my full potential. That has been made very clear by my Catholic relatives, Catholic acquaintances, Catholic priests, and the Church itself.
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I’m sort of wondering why if the Catholic ministry is “so accepting” these Catholic men are attacking this blogger and writing comments as if she’s an inferior woman. I think they might be proving her point just by how they talk to her, referring to her as “ignorant” and “illogical”. It’s also extremely interesting that the women who are commenting are dancing around the point that they’re not equal to men. “Yes we can’t go to that retreat, but we can do other important things” is what I’m understanding. In my experiences at church, I’ve never once noticed a woman doing much of anything…except praying. Or watching the kids in the nursery. I’ve never seen a man in a church nursery, unless he’s under the age of six. Maybe that has just been my experience, but my experience has shown me that women are subordinate and are only good for taking care of the kids while Daddy does his thing.
And Maggie, I’d really like to address this: “You can argue all you want that women and men can fulfill each other’s gender roles, but at the end of the day we are two separate genders and we feel and think differently. This does not in anyway mean we are not equal – we are just different.”
-We’re going to have to agree to disagree. You see, gender is socially constructed. Gender is a term that was coined to make people feel that the two sexes are different. It does not define male and female, it defines man and woman. Males and females are more alike than they are different, you just can’t see it because we’ve spent all our lives being told/taught/shown/treated otherwise. We’ve been taught that men are superior, dominant, tough, strong, emotionless, etc and that women are submissive, inferior, weak, and emotionally charged. This social construction of gender is emulated in the church. It’s not the Church’s fault, however they’re a highly respected organization that could have a huge impact on society and individual thinking by changing and breaking down these social constructions.
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I’m so glad to see such a good discussion going on! If only we could always be so real with each other and open to other people’s ideas.
I would first of all just like to say that, though I have myself considered the possibility of women being priests, I do not feel that I am not allowed to be a priest because I am of an “inferior gender.” You have not considered that there could be any other reasons for this practice. There certainly are. As Colleen said, the priest stands “in persona Christi,” which in non-Catholic-speak means that he is standing in as Christ. Since Christ came to earth as a man, the Church attempts to keep as many details consistent as possible in the celebration of the Mass. One of the things the Church comes under attack for most often is that it is “stubborn” and never changes. If you look a bit deeper, though, this “stubborness” can be a beautiful thing. It is our consistency and, if anything, very slow and careful change that has kept the Church united as the largest denomination of organized religion on earth.
I would also like to say that the Church is hands down the institution that has most made me proud to be a woman, and most made me feel like I have value in being a woman. We most certainly do live in an “unmanly” world. Lots of men, particurly on college campuses, are cowards who know nothing of the beauty and value of a woman. In turn, women themselves forget thier inherent worth. Pornography, one night stands, use of terminology like “slut” and “whore…” Where does it stop? For me, it stops with the Church, which tells me I am worth more than my body. With this confidence, I can go out into the world and demand respect of any man who ever wishes to associate with me. This is the attitude of Catholic men like the Knights and, I assume, most of the guys at the Mantreat. I’m glad it was all guys- they probably were able to be much more open with each other with no girls there. I know I value time with only women to discuss the issues we face in the world. Do not for one moment assume that most Catholic men think the way John initially responded. That was horrible and embarassing and in no way the response of the Church.
Finally, I would just like to agree with Maggie that of course as women we are different. Again, not inferior, but different. Gender is NOT a completely socially constructed idea, though I agree that much of it is. Our brains as women do certainly think differently; this is a biological and evolutionary need that developed. Men are more sexually motivated, more visual, and more prone to anger and violence; women in general have an inherent gentleness and maternal instincts. We have different levels of different chemicals flowing through our veins and we ARE different in some unignorable ways.
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Hi Grrrir and fellow commenters,
It is wonderfully true that God loves us because we are people. How amazing that reality is! As people, we were all created specifically, man and woman. Both intensely special, both sacred, both unique.
It is so important to grow as a community, all together as a single body in Christ, but it is also important to grow in fellowship with each other from our uniquely woman and man perspectives. The purpose of the separate retreats is to have an opportunity to grow in fellowship with sisters and brothers in Christ that have experienced some of the same perspective as you.
I would like to point out that the immediate assumption was to juxtapose “manly” and “womanly” as opposites. The frustration that I have read in these comments is based in the ramifications that the word “manly” has on other groups, be it “womanly,” gay, feminist, or what have you.
I challenge you to recognize that this is more degrading than the charge against the CCM event. We are not the opposite of men. Far from it! And I don’t believe that any one of you think that. We are unique, strong, womanly, and purposeful. Instead of focusing on how other groups define us, let us create our own definition and challenge each other to be better women as women.
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First I would just like to say that I think the dialogue/comments so far (with the exception of John’s comment) have been really fantastic and respectful. However, I am a bit confused by the last few comments, which examine the differences between men and women. In Caitrin’s post she says; “Our brains as women do certainly think differently; this is a biological and evolutionary need that developed. Men are more sexually motivated, more visual, and more prone to anger and violence; women in general have an inherent gentleness and maternal instincts.” While I do believe that your claim does have some basis, I think that it is a huge generalization and I find it personally confusing.
I think that attributing certain characteristics to what we define as “male” and “female” tends to put people in categories that do not necessarily exist. For example, I am a woman, but I personally tend to be more of a visual person and I also experience bursts of anger and have responded to situations in violence (not saying this is a good thing). I don’t think that these characteristics in females are as uncommon as some may believe. I also do not in any way believe that women are inherently more maternal or gentle than men. I believe that many women (myself possibly included) have very little maternal instincts or maternal desire-I think this is evident in the fact that not necessarily ALL women are GOOD mothers. To say that women inherently possess these characteristics just promotes further heterosexual gender norms.
This leads me to my next point; if a woman or a man does not possess the characteristics that you described as belonging to either male or female (such as a man who is compelled to care for children and is gentle in nature or a woman who is sexually motivated and prone to conflict) does that make them less of a person? Are they, by not adhering to gender norms condoned by the Church, seen as less valuable human beings? It seems to me that is what the comment was insinuating. At the same time, the characteristics you mentioned for males (sexually motivated, more prone to anger and violence) seem to be mainly negative characteristics. If sexual motivation and a tendency toward anger and violence are seen as less than desirable characteristics for any human to possess, then why are they excused as simply “male” characteristics? It seems largely unfair to me.
I also see issues in this in that people who were perhaps born into a male or female body but identify with the opposite gender would also not fit into these rigid roles and would then again feel ousted by the Church. It just seems to me that there is so much more to inherent “maleness” or “femaleness” and to say that we are biologically different only opens to door for unjust behavior and discriminatory ideology.
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Carlyq,
Thank you for all your interesting points! This part of my post wasn’t necessarily the part I was focusing on, I was just using it to explain a bit more why sometimes it’s good to have separate male and female events like this retreat. I also did not mean to make anyone feel unincluded because they don’t fit in neatly into one of these gender groupings, or to make men seem negative. These were just the first few random examples of generalities about each gender I thought of. Of course nothing will be universal, but I truly do believe that each of these things, as well as many other characteristics, largely separate the genders, and I still insist that we are different in some very real and meaningful ways. I like the way Christine put it- woman is definitely not the opposite of man, but she is also NOT man.
Now, the more important thing here than arguing over who fits these roles and who doesn’t is to point out that God loves us all, and so the Church seeks to follow that example and love everyone. I know some people who fall into categories that you say may feel ostracized by the Church who truly find a home there. People assume that, for example, being opposed to gay marriage makes the Church hateful towards homosexuals. This is not so. Again, these people neglect to acknowledge that there could be any other reason for such beliefs or rules. None of these rules, which all have their legitimate role and purpose I assure you,is as important, though, as the fundamental rule that Jesus taught: to love one another as He loved us. And the Church takes this very seriously.
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I know it has been awhile since I’ve chimed in, but I have been meeting with members of CCM preparing a follow-up blog. This particular issue, how woman and man are so inherently different, I will not be following up on, and thus feel an urge to respond to.
In Pepper Schwartz and Virginia Rutter’s article on Sexual Desire and Gender, the biology of male and female was explored in cahoots with sexual desire and violence, something rather applicable to our discussion here, no?
“Biological explanation of sexual desire concentrate on the role of hormones. Testosterone, sometimes called the male sex hormone, appears to be the most important hormone for sexual function. Numerous research studies identify testosterone as an enabler for male sexual arousal. But we cannot predict a man’s sexual tastes, desires, or behavior by measuring his testosterone (T). Although a low level of T isin men is sometimes associated with lower sexual desire, this not predictable the case. Furthermore, T level does not always influence sexual performance. Indeed, T is being experimented with as a male contraceptive, thus demonstrating that desire and the biological goal of reproduction need not be linked to sexual desire.
T has also been implicated in non-sexual behaviors, such as aggression. Furthermore, male aggression sometimes crosses into male sexuality, generating sexual violence. But recent research has on T and aggression in men has turned the T-aggression connection on it’s head: Low levels of T have been associated with aggression, and higher levels have been associated with calmness, happiness and friendliness.”
It goes on to say that T is also found in women (in much lower levels) and that Estrogen, also both found in men and women, is much more strongly linked to aggressive behavior.
So, excluding all of the intersex (guesstimate 1 in 2,000 people) and transgender people (guesstimate 1 in 60,000) we have all left out in this discussion, it would seem that those of us that seem to fall within traditional sex boundaries don’t have a whole lot to argue as far as being “naturally” conditioned to have certain amounts of sexual desire or certain amounts of violence implicated.
What are much stronger indicators, indexes or markers of the reasons men and women engage so often in these nurturing or violent roles is quite easy to see when you turn on a kid’s channel and the ads. Hotwheels? Forget seeing any girls in those commercials, including the loud explosions and loud yelling that happens in that ad. Those find-your-date-to-the-prom games, where you call boys on a fake phone? Girls are giggling and sharing and talking, and most definitely not asking the fake boys out on a date.
Remember when Demi Moore’s career virtually ended after her stunning performance in G.I. Jane? Doubt that was just a weird coincidence.
To put it simply, the separation of gender is being taught to boys and girls as early as when they get put in that blue or pink crib, and how they are talked to by their moms and dads, and the different bathrooms they use, and pitting boys vs. girls in the school yard. These differences are said to have much more importance than how similar they are. Imagine a schoolyard where the girl wins the race, and instead of acknowledging her for awesome it is that she beat all the boys, we acknowledge her for being the fastest. Period.
And sex? It also doesn’t seem to have any particularly convincing leads as to the “inherent” differences between females and males.
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Oh, and one more thing. As a queer-identified individual, I can tell you that in my experience, and I would say a vast majority of my LGBTQIQ friends’ coming out stories, the Church’s opposition to gay marriage is NOT what makes gay kids scared of or hate the church.
It’s the countless experiences I’ve personally heard from friends that in coming out to their parents, one of the bravest and hardest feats any kid can try to do, they have had pamphlets, verses, quotes, cold shoulders, and sometimes suitcases thrown at them in the name of a God that is supposed to love everyone, as everyone has claimed. So you cannot tell me that every single one of those parents is somehow an illegitimate or misinformed proponent of their church. They are just people, faced with an unexpected or dreaded situation in their own house, that justify their fear with a book or a god because it’s easier than trying to love someone for exactly who they are. It’s a whole lot easier to say, “no I totally love the gays” while they are over in the distance, but once you’re confronted with a kid or and aunt or a brother or a best friend that you are invested in, don’t tell me you know how you’d act, despite whatever your faith might be.
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Well instead of reading for classes or writing four papers that are due next week, I decided to read the entirety of this blog. I found it rather interesting that 24 of the 26 responses are from women, and the one from John is kind of irrelevant. But I’m not here to talk about that; I want to defend the attacks on the Church.
Being a former campus minister, and now a seminarian, I really do believe most of the things the Church taught; they’re not just “the company’s line.” I actually believe the things that are taught (of course, they must be interpreted correctly). I’m not going to go into specifics: women priests, gays, lesbians, and stuff like that.
However, many contemporary theists and atheists strongly voice their opinions against the Church, and it is challenging to defend against their truths, but as ministers of the Church, we have to be able to defend our beliefs, both for our good and the good of the critics. The best response to these challenges are written in Thomas Merton’s The Seven Storey Mountain: “The first and most elementary test of one’s call to the religious life—whether as a Jesuit, Franciscan, Cistercian or Carthusian—is the willingness to accept life in a community in which everybody is more or less imperfect.” This holds for any religious organization.
This is not to dismiss or excuse all the problems, imperfections, and even sinfulness of religion. Rather, it is a realistic admission that as long as we’re human, we will be imperfect, and the search for perfection and answers to every problem may be one without end. I believe that the positive aspects religion brings about outweigh the negatives: traditions of love, forgiveness, and charity, as well as the more tangible outgrowths of thousands of faith-based organizations that care for the poor. Think too of generous men and women, like St. Francis of Assisi, St. Teresa of Avila, Mother Teresa, MLK, etc. Add to that billions of believers who have found in their own religious tradition not only comfort but also a moral voice urging them to live selfless lives and to challenge the status quo. The bottom line is, there are certain truths we cannot isolate and take out of context, especially religion.
…and YES the Church welcomes EVERYONE! Ask someone creditable to explain it to you.
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This has been a VERY interesting discussion on a lot of tough topics. Except for the outburst of John early on, who did try and apologize later, it has been civil and informative. Kudus to the blogger who started it!
I’d like to add that despite the focus on gender and religion, a significant point may not yet have been made. I’d like to take it to what I consider a next higher level and state that we are ALL individuals.
Each of us has our own levels of inter-body chemicals, our own exposures to parenting, churches, and school yards, and our own maturation processes that make each and everyone of us unique.
To not recognize that leads to the various categorizations that society creates for whatever justification appears needed. The result is the present situation, where there are powerful and powerless. If religion, any religion, teaches tolerance of one another, then there is no justification for not recognizing the individuality of each and every one of us. This then should lead to the understanding that these individual characteristics, be they physical, spiritual, or social, must create a wide range of overlap amongst the human species.
In my perfect world, tolerance is the norm and acceptance of individuality is appropriate. Concurrently, as individuals, we should strive to avoid repeating our offensive behaviors to the dismay of those we offend. We should be sensitive to where others come from and work with them to achieve a better understanding of who they are and why they are who they are.
Not to continue picking on poor John, but he exemplified what I am saying. His outburst came from his gut, not his mind. It appeared to be what the “boys” are saying when alone, not the PC of his thoughtful apology. If folks like John continue to work on aligning his brain with his gut, the world will definitely improve…
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